tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post114073129914625258..comments2023-12-27T03:40:39.548-05:00Comments on Mah Rabu מה רבו: Hilchot Pluralism, Part I: The Two-Table SystemBZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-63700517754969957212016-05-25T17:31:28.850-04:002016-05-25T17:31:28.850-04:00Do you think there's some critical community s...Do you think there's some critical community size or diversity where this becomes important? Because we have a mixed-practices community where we do a lot of vegetarian potlucks, and we don't use the two-table system. There are certain "community standards" (e.g. use hekshered cheese for the potluck even if you don't at home), but for the most part people seem to do fine eating what they feel comfortable with (which in a few cases might mean eating their own main dish plus salads). <br /><br />On the other hand, when the synagogue holds (much larger) potlucks, the range of kashrut practices (and non-practice) and the level of knowledge is much more variable, and I could see the two-table system being useful in that context. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10954195529139489235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-55971614258921216242016-05-25T16:45:27.674-04:002016-05-25T16:45:27.674-04:00The first OU certified products (Sunshine crackers...The first OU certified products (Sunshine crackers) were in 1924. The first OU heksher(on Heinz Vegetarian Baked Beans) was in 1927. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10954195529139489235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-83040555807740679392008-01-29T20:55:00.000-05:002008-01-29T20:55:00.000-05:00I had a roomate situation in which my roomate was ...I had a roomate situation in which my roomate was "table 1" (though she would eat only hechsherd meat)and I was "table 2".<BR/>It was perhaps one of the best living situations I had. It gave for some great "what is kashrut really" conversations. <BR/>The only downside was when some of my not so sensitive friends came over and asked "so are these the kosher dishes or the treif ones?" She was, understandably, really insulted from that one.beverlyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01172252672520984642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-56333574544763079302007-11-03T22:10:00.000-04:002007-11-03T22:10:00.000-04:00The two-table system spreads:I recently, for the f...The two-table system spreads:<BR/><BR/>I recently, for the first time, participated in "the two-table system" being used at a <I>single</I> table (in a private home in Cambridge, MA). Items on one side of the table were heksher-kosher, and on the other side, vegetarian without hekshers.Ilanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533606815036661328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147120434172520152006-05-08T16:33:00.000-04:002006-05-08T16:33:00.000-04:00Re: the positiion of mezuzot . . .I believe the ma...Re: the positiion of mezuzot . . .<BR/><BR/>I believe the mahloqet was between Rashi and Rebbenu Tam (not Hillel and Shammai)<BR/><BR/>SWAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1141158204527387352006-02-28T15:23:00.000-05:002006-02-28T15:23:00.000-05:00Good stuff here -- thank you. I appreciate your aw...Good stuff here -- thank you. I appreciate your awareness of the dual challenge, to wit, everyone wants to be able to eat; everyone wants to be able to feed others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1141020422120039982006-02-27T01:07:00.000-05:002006-02-27T01:07:00.000-05:00This is really a very minor point, but BZ wrote: "...This is really a very minor point, but BZ wrote: "First of all, reading ingredients is more "trad"; hechshers are a late-20th-century innovation."<BR/><BR/>Actually, having prepared, pre-packaged food with ingredients listed is not really all that "trad." It's so very post-war, mid-20th century. What's <I>really</I> "trad" is knowing the person who grew/produced/baked/cooked your food, or doing it all yourself, and thus knowing exactly what went into it.<BR/><BR/>Your resident social historian...Abacaxi Mamaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06604184268628243496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140794799574601802006-02-24T10:26:00.000-05:002006-02-24T10:26:00.000-05:00Ilana: Issue 1: KZ encourages people to bring th...Ilana: <BR/><BR/>Issue 1: KZ encourages people to bring their own reusable dishes in order to reduce environmental impact, but also provides disposable dishes to people who don't bring their own. I agree that this is not ideal from an eco-kashrut perspective. However, even if we all agreed on a single kashrut standard, we still wouldn't be able to have a set of reusable dishes, because we move around to different locations and wouldn't have anywhere to keep them. If we had our own building, then it would be appropriate to get a set (or two) of reusable dishes, and we'd have to figure something out.<BR/><BR/>Issue 2: I'll leave the questions about sponges and dishwashers to those who are more knowledgeable about these issues, but I hear that the founders of the <A HREF="http://www.zoominyan.org" REL="nofollow">Zoo Minyan</A> have <B>5</B> sets of dishes in their home: dairy, meat, Pesach dairy, Pesach meat, and potluck (and there's a special "potluck" dishwasher in the basement).<BR/><BR/>Suggestion for Part 2: Good call!BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140794238055571702006-02-24T10:17:00.000-05:002006-02-24T10:17:00.000-05:00Desh-I agree that this isn't a permanent solution ...Desh-<BR/>I agree that this isn't a permanent solution to anything, both for the reasons Ilana brings up and because it was created for a specific early-21st-century religio-sociocultural context. Who knows what we'll be eating in 100 years? (But everyone agrees that Soylent Green isn't kosher.) But I disagree with the general statement that it's wrong to declare something "finished". Beit Shammai wanted mezuzot to be put up horizontally, and Beit Hillel wanted them to be put up vertically, so for the last 2000 years we've been putting them up diagonally, and I think it's ok if we keep doing that for another 2000 years. It won't bother me if we never revisit the mezuzah question, because we have lots of other questions with which to occupy ourselves that Hillel and Shammai never dreamed of.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140778583103261052006-02-24T05:56:00.000-05:002006-02-24T05:56:00.000-05:00Just a thought: would the two-table system work fo...Just a thought: would the two-table system work for the rules of discourse? Could Ishmael and Akiva take Torah from different tables (one from Heaven, one not from Heaven) and have a meaningful discussion over lunch? Can the Torah scholar who reads for halachah and the one who reads for aggadah speak to each other rather than past each other?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140761033890355092006-02-24T01:03:00.000-05:002006-02-24T01:03:00.000-05:00ER—I agree that it was probably easier becau...ER—<BR/>I agree that it was probably easier because there wasn't a disagreement about defining kashrut, and therefore no worries about authenticity. Do you think it could be possible to use a two-table style labeling which doesn't define one as kosher or more kosher in a setting with two different Jewish practices? Is there a sense of missed opportunity if two Jews who both seek to keep kosher and make community have to divide their shared life in such a way?<BR/><BR/>I think that two tables works very well as a solution to this specific challenge, and I'm looking forwards to parts II, III and beyond. But I'm not yet convinced that this approach can be used for a majority of the "hilchot pluralsm" our communities face today.boxfoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14565216066455091159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140756647800766052006-02-23T23:50:00.000-05:002006-02-23T23:50:00.000-05:00Re: Shaynale's comment, I once shared a tiny NYC k...Re: Shaynale's comment, I once shared a tiny NYC kitchen with a non-Jewish woman from Nebraska who didn't know anything about keeping kosher. My parts of the kitchen were stricly hechsher-kosher and her parts of the kitchen weren't kosher at all. We had separate microwaves, toasters, and shelves in the fridge, we split the stove burners (two for me, two for her), I used a washing tub in the sink, and the default for the oven was that it was kosher. (The few times she wanted to use it, I kashered afterwards.) It was actually one of the best roommate situations I've had and we got along perfectly fine. I suspect, though, that things might have been more difficult had my roommate been Jewish and just had different ideas about kashrut.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140754290751420782006-02-23T23:11:00.000-05:002006-02-23T23:11:00.000-05:00BZ, thanks so much for spelling out the halacha on...BZ, thanks so much for spelling out the halacha on this one. I'm proud of our communities for having worked out and taken on this practice.<BR/><BR/><I>A few responses to Part 1, and a suggestion for Part 2:</I><BR/><BR/><B>Issue 1:</B> You've outlined a solution that allows people with different levels of stringency around kashrut to be able to cook for each other and eat together. But you have not included the concern for <B>eco-kashrut</B>. Does KZ use disposable dishes? If not, how does it guarantee the integrity of the 2-table system when reusing dishes?<BR/><BR/><B>Issue 2:</B> How does the 2-table system apply to <B>our homes</B>? That is, for those of us who have a set of "table 1" dishes (vegetarian, perhaps with kosher-type fish) and a set of "table 2" dishes (heksher required) -- what practices do we need to have in place to keep them distinct? Do we need separate... sponges? dishracks? dishwasher runs? none of the above? <BR/><BR/><B>Suggestion for Part 2:</B> "double mechitza"/trichitza/meshlitza. That is, having one davenning with 3 sections for folks to be in.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hooray for halacha that is creative, understandable, and helps bring us together!Ilanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533606815036661328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140750323002723652006-02-23T22:05:00.000-05:002006-02-23T22:05:00.000-05:00Nothing comes to mind right now for a potential Pa...Nothing comes to mind right now for a potential Part II. But I hope that some future Part addresses kashrut again, giving an alternate method. Because I really hope that the two-table method hasn't "solved" the kashrut "problem"; something about being "finished" with an aspect of pluralism feels unsettling to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140747024280777612006-02-23T21:10:00.000-05:002006-02-23T21:10:00.000-05:00(Not that innovations are necessarily a bad thing,...(Not that innovations are necessarily a bad thing, of course.)BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140746863152065622006-02-23T21:07:00.000-05:002006-02-23T21:07:00.000-05:00First of all, reading ingredients is more "trad"; ...First of all, reading ingredients is more "trad"; hechshers are a late-20th-century innovation.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, how big is the kitchen? Is it big enough to subdivide it into different zones? Is this a kitchen that people use full-time, or where they're bringing food that they cooked in their own homes?BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1140735415928154152006-02-23T17:56:00.000-05:002006-02-23T17:56:00.000-05:00First occurrence of two-table system that I'm awar...First occurrence of two-table system that I'm aware of was at the Van Ness Minyan in DC, which was at that time led by the "Mayor of Van Ness," Eric Gurevitz. (Van Ness has since folded into the lay-led Ruach Minyan at Adas Israel Congregation, which meets on the first & third Fridays.) I've emailed Eric to see if the idea started there, or came from somewhere else. Yay for pluralism level II!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com