tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post7101535584045765785..comments2023-12-27T03:40:39.548-05:00Comments on Mah Rabu מה רבו: The results are in: Take IIIBZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-65759534950616160762007-12-19T16:46:00.000-05:002007-12-19T16:46:00.000-05:00I do think that independent minyanim have a higher...<I>I do think that independent minyanim have a higher level of responsibility for forward-planning if they want even their own participants to view them as more than an experience for unmarried people/DINKs in their 20s/30s.</I><BR/><BR/>In my own life, I view <B>New York</B> as an experience for my unmarried/DINK self in my 20s/30s. :)BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-49802851827847180432007-12-19T16:44:00.000-05:002007-12-19T16:44:00.000-05:00wolfman writes:Obviously there's taste involved, b...wolfman writes:<BR/><I>Obviously there's taste involved, but Be-Kol Ehad's song selection is paltry compared to either NCSY or Artscroll Family Zemiros [shudder] -- in particular, it leaves out my favorite "Ki Eshmerah Shabbat" and the beautiful "Tzamah Nafshi."</I><BR/><BR/>And, most egregiously, the last three verses of Yedid Nefesh.<BR/><BR/><I>(With the exception of Dorff's book, which has a decent history section but belongs to a strange genre of Conservative Movement Propaganda which I appreciate about as much as Orthodox Propaganda.)</I><BR/><BR/>Is this the one that has the menu of the treyfe banquet as an appendix?BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-13454789693139567982007-12-19T16:41:00.000-05:002007-12-19T16:41:00.000-05:00dlevy,Obviously there's taste involved, but Be-Kol...dlevy,<BR/><BR/>Obviously there's taste involved, but Be-Kol Ehad's song selection is paltry compared to either NCSY or Artscroll Family Zemiros [shudder] -- in particular, it leaves out my favorite "Ki Eshmerah Shabbat" and the beautiful "Tzamah Nafshi." And while I think both Etz Hayyim & Stone royally suck (neither watered down academia & superficial derash nor frum moralizing appeal to me), at least the latter has Rashi in the original!<BR/><BR/>Since I haven't seen the educational materials to which you refer, I'll demur from commenting. (With the exception of Dorff's book, which has a decent history section but belongs to a strange genre of Conservative Movement Propaganda which I appreciate about as much as Orthodox Propaganda.) Minimally, however, at least Artscroll's footnotes lead to occasionally-obscure mekorot, and while a bit mahmir, their Halachos of Berachos & Halachos of Kashrus books contain useful practical summaries.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-53105464389304538982007-12-19T16:32:00.000-05:002007-12-19T16:32:00.000-05:00bz,1) & 2) I'm prepared to say אין הכי נמי for the...bz,<BR/><BR/>1) & 2) I'm prepared to say אין הכי נמי for the moment, since you've drawn a distinction between independent minyanim as networks vs. as organizations with which I agree. I do think that independent minyanim have a higher level of responsibility for forward-planning if they want even their own participants to view them as more than an experience for unmarried people/DINKs in their 20s/30s. (I don't buy the comparative expectation argument -- I think independent minyanim [at least those that represent an ideology] _should_ strive to do a better job than synagogues.)<BR/><BR/>3) You're right that the suburbs (or even quasi-suburbs) are not inevitable, but there are plenty of people who live there or who ultimately have no choice but to live there. And they have potential resources (more money, more stability) that could be tapped.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-12177556380652324022007-12-18T17:34:00.000-05:002007-12-18T17:34:00.000-05:00Amechad--DC Minyan:Someone on the steering committ...Amechad--<BR/><BR/>DC Minyan:<BR/>Someone on the steering committee could give you a fuller answer (I'm a civilian), but I'd say they draw on different sources.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't be surprised if they draw on conservative sources in terms of allowing women to lead davenning, just b/c that's where a lot of exploring halachic implications of egal has gone on. That's just a guess, though. <BR/><BR/>But their kashrut policy looks more ortho as all processed foods need a hechsher, with no exemption for cheese. <BR/><BR/>But honestly? I think most of DCM's policy is based on "what will enable the most people who are interested in coming to feel comfortable*?" (i.e. separate seating but no mechitza, women davenning but 10+10 for a minyan), rather than a particular philosophy. <BR/><BR/>TLS-- I believe it gets more Reform raised people than DCM, but it gets a lot (or at least some) of everything. <BR/><BR/>*Yeah, I know it's a circle. But the creation story I've heard is that a bunch of younger folks at both Adas and Kesher all felt alienated at their respective shuls and started talking and figuring out what peoples' "red lines" were, and came up with a format that included a critical mass of people. <BR/>I'd be interested in having this story confirmed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-21875821410306574952007-12-18T12:32:00.000-05:002007-12-18T12:32:00.000-05:00Rabbi Dr. Ethan Tucker's sources, one of the found...<I>Rabbi Dr. Ethan Tucker's sources, one of the founders, who... is ideologically Conservative</I><BR/><BR/>Have you asked Ethan Tucker whether that's true?<BR/><BR/>Also, what does "ideologically Conservative" even mean? I think all non-Orthodox Jews (and even some Orthodox Jews) are ideologically Conservative in some areas, in the same way that I think all Jews are also ideologically Reconstructionist in some areas.<BR/><BR/><I>And other indy minyanim are partnership minyanim, which, if anything like Shira Hadasha, have tons of Conservative 'marranos' there (myself included).</I><BR/><BR/>Why are you in hiding at Shira Hadasha? There are also other folks who come (though maybe not all regulars) who'd be proud to say they're egal, liberal Jews.<BR/><BR/><I>Of course that doesn't reflect those places like Tikkun Leil Shabbat, which I suspect are more the places that attract Reform-raised Jews </I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.RRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05044207755047605659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-27477401044703381712007-12-18T07:57:00.000-05:002007-12-18T07:57:00.000-05:00But you forget that minyanim like Hadar and DC Min...<I>But you forget that minyanim like Hadar and DC Minyan (OK, only 2 of the many indy minyanim) actually base their halakhic decision making on Conservative/Masorti teshuvot (I can't find it now but it linked to Rabbi Dr. Golinkin's teshuvot on women in the minyan, among others</I><BR/><BR/>DC Minyan I don't know about. As for Hadar, perhaps those on the inside can clarify if they're reading this, but my understanding is that the Hadar organizers make policy decisions* based on consulting a variety of opinions, some of which might happen to come from within the Conservative/Masorti movement, but which receive no privileged status by virtue of being Conservative/Masorti positions. The Golinkin teshuvot are linked on the <A HREF="http://www.kehilathadar.org/sources/" REL="nofollow">Hadar website</A> as "useful resources", not as official Hadar policy.<BR/><BR/>* Yes, policy decisions, not "halakhic decisions". As I understand it, the Hadar gabbaim understand their decision-making authority as applying only to what Hadar does, not to what is and isn't permissible for individuals or other communities.<BR/><BR/><I>as well as Rabbi Dr. Ethan Tucker's sources, one of the founders, who does straddle that "mechitza" institutionally but is ideologically Conservative</I><BR/><BR/>Bzzzzzzzzt! FOUL! Once you introduce "ideologically Conservative" into the picture, you're engaging in exactly the kind of blurring I'm talking about.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-84334333094845777502007-12-18T03:11:00.000-05:002007-12-18T03:11:00.000-05:00Still, that disclaimer says "Approved teshuvot rep...<I>Still, that disclaimer says "Approved teshuvot represent official halakhic positions of the Conservative movement." "Official", even if they're not binding, and even if they can be overruled or disregarded. And it seems to me that this means that they're official positions of a set of institutions, not official positions of the locus of all Jewish communities with Hebrew egalitarian davening.</I><BR/><BR/>But you forget that minyanim like Hadar and DC Minyan (OK, only 2 of the many indy minyanim) actually base their halakhic decision making on Conservative/Masorti teshuvot (I can't find it now but it linked to Rabbi Dr. Golinkin's teshuvot on women in the minyan, among others, as well as Rabbi Dr. Ethan Tucker's sources, one of the founders, who does straddle that "mechitza" institutionally but is ideologically Conservative (although I wonder what his father thinks!))<BR/><BR/>And other indy minyanim are partnership minyanim, which, if anything like Shira Hadasha, have tons of Conservative 'marranos' there (myself included). Of course that doesn't reflect those places like Tikkun Leil Shabbat, which I suspect are more the places that attract Reform-raised JewsAvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08329515764832743303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-54308334909565507032007-12-16T10:56:00.000-05:002007-12-16T10:56:00.000-05:00Some of the Conservative Movement publications tha...Some of the Conservative Movement publications that compare positively against Artscroll include the bentcher (B'Kol Echad), the Etz Hayim chumash (not perfect, but a major step), and a lot of the educational materials coming from both the formal and informal offices (eg "Higher & Higher: Making Jewish Prayer Part of Us," "Community & Responsibility," and although there's no Orthodox analogue, Dorff's "Conservative Judaism: Our Ancestors to Our Descendants")...dlevyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783559025411133092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-30346790656012165762007-12-15T14:06:00.000-05:002007-12-15T14:06:00.000-05:00but rather about their lack of long-term temporal ...<I>but rather about their lack of long-term temporal vision, either for the Jewish lives of their participants post-minyan (e.g., are these minyanim thinking about continuity of experience to the suburbs)</I><BR/><BR/>A few responses to this:<BR/>1) I would argue (and <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2005/11/profile-of-unaffiliated-jew.html" REL="nofollow">have argued</A>) that the same lack of long-term vision for participants' Jewish lives is found in the conventional synagogue movements, both in terms of life stage (one reason that so many people in their 20s and 30s are attracted to independent minyanim is that many synagogues fail to be a space for those who are neither children nor parents) and in terms of Jewish education (the liberal movements are not prepared to deal with their own educational success and have communities of educated laypeople). I'm not sure the expectations for independent minyanim (which are run by volunteers) should be higher.<BR/><BR/>2) I <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2007/06/whats-next.html" REL="nofollow">fully agree</A> that we (as individuals, and as networks) should be thinking proactively about our futures. But I don't think that falls within the responsibilities of minyanim (as organizations), unless a minyan is planning to move en masse.<BR/><BR/>3) I resent the (very common) meme that "the suburbs" are inevitable.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-63965818234763707412007-12-15T13:46:00.000-05:002007-12-15T13:46:00.000-05:00Still, that disclaimer says "Approved teshuvot rep...Still, that disclaimer says "Approved teshuvot represent official halakhic positions of the Conservative movement." "Official", even if they're not binding, and even if they can be overruled or disregarded. And it seems to me that this means that they're official positions of a set of institutions, not official positions of the locus of all Jewish communities with Hebrew egalitarian davening.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-88455548461192100832007-12-15T13:37:00.000-05:002007-12-15T13:37:00.000-05:00Three thoughts:(1) The survey only answers accusat...Three thoughts:<BR/><BR/>(1) The survey only answers accusations of one type of narcissicism. The narcissism which is of greater concern to me is not about their larger concerns (for the world or the Jewish people), but rather about their lack of long-term temporal vision, either for the Jewish lives of their participants post-minyan (e.g., are these minyanim thinking about continuity of experience to the suburbs) or for their own role/responsibility, as an educational/social phenomenon. (I predict that one response, at least to the this second aspect of vision, is that the very ability of these minyanim to disorganize is a great strength of theirs. That may be true on a local level, but I, as someone who has broader social hopes for the community created by particular prayer experiences, would prefer to see a stress placed on broader contiguity of experience, even if particular experiences disorganize.)<BR/><BR/>(2) I wonder how people distinguish "Jewish responsibility" from plain-old "responsibility." <BR/><BR/>(3) "[T]they seem to be making the absurd claim that the CJLS (etc.) automatically has plenary jurisdiction over any Jewish community that davens in Hebrew without a mechitza (or whatever criteria they’re using) or has Ramah alumni among its participants, regardless of whether that community ever consented to this." I think the CJLS itself is pretty clear that its decisions have no jurisdiction whatsoever, and are merely a set of ratified positions that individual community leaders can accept willy-nilly. (See, e.g., the disclaimer <A HREF="http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/law/contemporary_halakhah.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> or on the bottom of any of the linked teshuvot.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-17927864576881735982007-12-15T13:20:00.000-05:002007-12-15T13:20:00.000-05:00dlevy, what Conservative publications would such a...dlevy, what Conservative publications would such an identified person compare positively against Artscroll? Aside from siddur (and while both Sim Shalom & Artscroll have severe aesthetic and substantive issues, preference for a siddur usually comes from movement identification), what is there to compare?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-913618055107624592007-12-14T17:35:00.000-05:002007-12-14T17:35:00.000-05:00I think "no one" is an overstatement. I think man...I think "no one" is an overstatement. I think many young adults (and older) would compare their youth group and/or camping experiences positively even when compared to the Orthodox equivalents. Ditto for publications, especially if we take Orthodoxy in this case to mean ArtScroll.dlevyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783559025411133092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-66867303329906107002007-12-14T16:53:00.000-05:002007-12-14T16:53:00.000-05:00I feel like I already know the answer: No one who ...I feel like I already know the answer: No one who identifies as Conservative has any positive associations with that identification as it compares to Orthodoxy (as opposed to comparing it with other movements or it standing on its own), with the notable exception of egalitarianism.<BR/><BR/>This is why I have such high hopes for the heksher tzedek. At best, it will create a new positive identity for Conservative Judaism.Deshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07720188592403708276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-63830540143217935292007-12-14T12:18:00.000-05:002007-12-14T12:18:00.000-05:00"(This is even more true of the border, or "mechit...<I>"(This is even more true of the border, or "mechitza" if you will, between Conservative and Orthodox identification.)"</I><BR/><BR/>Nice wording :) <BR/><BR/>Someone should do a study on *that* boundary line. I'm interested.chillul Who?https://www.blogger.com/profile/05642273904688439053noreply@blogger.com