tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post4333814301279871114..comments2023-12-27T03:40:39.548-05:00Comments on Mah Rabu מה רבו: YOUR HEAD A SPLODEBZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-90443975104766274662011-06-15T15:52:43.813-04:002011-06-15T15:52:43.813-04:00Abbi writes:
As for one or two day yom tovs, bibli...Abbi writes:<br /><i>As for one or two day yom tovs, biblically, one day would be more traditional, but rabbinically it wouldn't. Since Judaism decided to go with the Pharisees rather than the sadducees during/after the second Temple, you're out of luck. Two days became rabbinically traditional, outside of Israel.<br /><br />If we went with the Saducees, then yes you'd be right, one day would be traditional today as well.</i><br /><br />Sorry this is a delayed reaction, but what on earth are you talking about? Were there ever Sadducees outside of Israel? If not, how do we know how many days of yom tov they would have done?BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-47279572190858655652007-08-29T13:05:00.000-04:002007-08-29T13:05:00.000-04:00" Progress, creativity, renewal etc. are major tho..." Progress, creativity, renewal etc. are major thought patterns of modern people."<BR/><BR/>umm progress happens whether you value it or not. things, including religion and culture change, whether you value that or not, or whether you think about it or not. The world in general is changing at a rather faster pace than it used to, but its silly to say that Judaism hasn't evovled.<BR/><BR/>"Orthodoxy finds meaning in continuity and preservation and values the eternal over the temporal."<BR/><BR/>what eternal? <BR/><BR/>"Since Judaism decided to go with the Pharisees rather than the sadducees during/after the second Temple, you're out of luck"<BR/><BR/>why is this statement ok, but not the equivalent "Judaism decided to go with reform rather than orthodox, so you're out of luck"?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04979671241283756409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-37403350845242099602007-08-24T01:10:00.000-04:002007-08-24T01:10:00.000-04:00I take back my comment about "being creative" with...I take back my comment about "being creative" with tradition being un-traditional. I think there is a lot more room to be creative with tradition then many traditional Jews currently think/assume.Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-514433228354999772007-08-24T01:09:00.000-04:002007-08-24T01:09:00.000-04:00Look, I'm happy to nitpik over different tradition...Look, I'm happy to nitpik over different traditions, but you didn't really address my overall assertion, that there are objective Jewish traditions, which would mean one who observes those traditions would be considered a traditional Jew and one who rejects them, seeks to be creative with them or "reform" them would not be considered a traditional Jew.<BR/><BR/>One must have an original form in order to "reform" something, no?<BR/><BR/>As a famous rabbi once said, the rest is just commentary. <BR/><BR/>As for one or two day yom tovs, biblically, one day would be more traditional, but rabbinically it wouldn't. Since Judaism decided to go with the Pharisees rather than the sadducees during/after the second Temple, you're out of luck. Two days became rabbinically traditional, outside of Israel.<BR/><BR/>If we went with the Saducees, then yes you'd be right, one day would be traditional today as well.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure you can bring a ton of rabbinical anomalies, contradictions, paradoxes, oxymorons. However, since Judaism took the rabbinic path rather than any other, that's the tradition we're stuck with. <BR/><BR/>Clearly, Reform, conservative and Reconstructionist Judaism was unsatisfied with this path and chose to make great and small changes. However they were changing Jewish tradition as it was more or less practiced for certainly hundreds of years, if not a thousand or two. <BR/><BR/>Of course Jewish tradition was never monolithic by any means and changed within communities, regions , etc for various reasons. But I do think that what was codified in the Oral Torah, from the mishna down to the Mishna Berurah, can be considered a coherent tradition nonethelessCommenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-21052833370696855532007-08-23T17:25:00.000-04:002007-08-23T17:25:00.000-04:00How about keeping 1 day of yom tov? When looking a...How about keeping 1 day of yom tov? When looking at the overall flow of Jewish history, that's a more traditional practice than keeping 2 days. How about <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2006/10/why-im-benching-lulav-this-shabbat.html" REL="nofollow">benching lulav on Shabbat</A>?BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-10694735628480799512007-08-23T17:12:00.000-04:002007-08-23T17:12:00.000-04:00"And in the Reform movement, the latter attitude i..."And in the Reform movement, the latter attitude is found more among the organ crowd than among the tefillin crowd (which believes they are shaking things up)."<BR/><BR/>Right, that may be true about Reform Judaism, but it certainly isn't true about Judaism as a whole. When speaking of Judaism from pre-modern to modern times one who observes kashrut and shabbat would certainly be a more traditional Jew than one who drives to a Red Lobster on shabbat to eat shrimp.<BR/><BR/>Reform might very well have its own conventions and mores, adherence to which might make one a more or less traditional <I>Reform</I> Jew. That doesn't negate the fact that Judaism itself has objective traditions codified for centuries (Carlebach notwithstanding), adherence to which would make one a more or less traditional Jew. (i.e. Choosing to observe the laws of kashrut means one is engaging in a traditional Jewish activity).<BR/><BR/>It's not clear to me how you can reject the notion that there exist such traditional Jewish activities.I can understand how as a reform Jew you might reject them, but they certainly do exist. <BR/><BR/>(in case it's not clear, I agree with David 100%)Commenter Abbihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07753256568022159103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-32465397947434711322007-08-19T11:32:00.000-04:002007-08-19T11:32:00.000-04:00David writes:Progress, creativity, renewal etc. ar...David writes:<BR/><I>Progress, creativity, renewal etc. are major thought patterns of modern people. Orthodoxy finds meaning in continuity and preservation</I><BR/><BR/>And in the Reform movement, the latter attitude is found more among the organ crowd than among the tefillin crowd (which believes they are shaking things up).BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-27841345637121343332007-08-19T02:58:00.000-04:002007-08-19T02:58:00.000-04:00Hi,Magnes Press recently published a book of acade...Hi,<BR/>Magnes Press recently published a book of academic essays (historical, philosophical, sociological) about Orthodoxy. The book was edited by Prof. Avi Ravitzky. From their website you can download the table of contents and also Prof. Ravitzky's excellent introduction. (They've made the table of contents and introductions of most of their books available for free downloading). <BR/><BR/>Ravitzky writes in response to Jacob Katz's famous observation that Orthodoxy is a response to modernity and is distinct from pre-modern traditional Judaism. That observation has framed most of the academic discourse surrounding Orthodoxy. After offering several insightful critiques of that view, Ravitzky notes that in some ways Orthodox Jews are traditional and in a way that contrasts to modern Jews (and modern people in general) irrespective of when a given Carlbach niggun was written or minhag adopted. <BR/><BR/>Modern people see progress and change as inevitable and positive things, almost without regard to the content of the change itself. Progress, creativity, renewal etc. are major thought patterns of modern people. Orthodoxy finds meaning in continuity and preservation and values the eternal over the temporal. Hence, Orthodox Jews and Orthodoxy are "traditional" in a meaningful way. Tradition and traditionalism are part and parcel of the religious worldview of Orthodox Jews and this puts them (us) at odds with modern people. This is independent of what a historian could notice regarding this or that change in Orthodox behavior.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-39994595090080660182007-08-15T22:07:00.000-04:002007-08-15T22:07:00.000-04:00As a 2007 URJ Kutz Campus for Reform Jewish Teen L...As a 2007 URJ Kutz Campus for Reform Jewish Teen Life participant, I attended this service. <BR/><BR/>I remember that 4th of July like it was yesterday. One of my really good friends was part of the service and was helping out. All the lights were down in the beit am and there were colorful lights towards the front on the two singers, the boy on the drum box, a boy playing guitar, and a man on an electric panio. I asked my friend who was helping lead what type of service this was going to be, and she told me how it was going to be a different kind of jazzy service. <BR/><BR/>I was somewhat excited because I do like jazz, and it was nice that we were going to change things up a bit. I decided to sit in the front row because no one seemed to want to be up there, and I’m not afraid of things like this so, I did with a friend in hand. <BR/><BR/>The service started with the jazzy beats and the panio tunes. I realized that this was no ordinary service at all. After realizing that I wasn’t going to be able to have a connection I just decided to have fun with it. I was not going to walk out because personally I find it rude and disrespectful when someone walks out a service that was obviously very hard to put together. As a regional songleader, I know what kind of hard work and effort gets put into these types of services. So I just kind of pretended it wasn’t a service and just danced and made the best of the situation. <BR/><BR/>It did bother me a little bit that he interupted a lot of prayers and kind of took us out of most people’s confort levels. But honestly, I just went with it. <BR/><BR/>I didn’t realize that so many people walked out until they all came back in. The RA’s had to do their job into getting all the PP’s to go back to their seats. <BR/><BR/>It’s the aftermath that really got to me more. After that service all of our services had all hebrew. We all the sudden became really traditional. It personally made me upset when people walked out because of the work put into a service. I mean I understand why they did, but I know that I would feel so badly if I’m up there trying to lead the congergation in a service and they just got up and left. I think that’s what a lot of PP’s didn’t realize when they walked out.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12281892162022718223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-51902032367839506132007-08-15T21:40:00.000-04:002007-08-15T21:40:00.000-04:00As I understand it, these staff members were HUC s...As I understand it, these staff members were HUC students, so they've already made a major commitment to the Reform movement, and presumably see their practice as operating within a Reform framework. They're not just random frummies who got a gig at Kutz for the summer and then found that the camp culture wasn't what they were expecting. Likewise, when I was on staff at OSRUI, my practices had developed as a result of my experiences at OSRUI. I thought that I was doing exactly what my Reform Jewish education had taught me.<BR/><BR/>In this particular case, the staff members were doing kabbalat shabbat psalms, which appear in the Reform siddur even if they're not commonly done in Reform services (likewise, the Friday night service in Sim Shalom includes English responsive readings even if no one uses them), so it can't be claimed that they were violating Reform principles. If they had been organizing a non-egal minyan, that would have been another matter entirely.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-30719198987565263042007-08-15T20:38:00.000-04:002007-08-15T20:38:00.000-04:00I love when you write on these issues, and I think...I love when you write on these issues, and I think you got it mostly right. But, as someone who comes from the movement world and is currently straddling both the movement world and the trans-denominational world (professionally, anyway - I'm pretty much out of the movements otherwise), I don't think you are being fair enough to the Rabbi in charge of the camp. <BR/><BR/>Her role isn't strictly to raise up young Jews to be empowered Jewish adults, no matter how much we might want that to be her job. She does have a mandate to educate these kids as Reform Jews. That mandate extends to all the staff members working at camp. For that reason, it is important that the role models for the kids participate (at least outwardly) wholeheartedly in the Reform services using the Reform siddur, etc, without giving off the impression that they aren't "good enough" or what have you. Now, I think the camp/director/staff have an obligation to address what might be lacking there in an open and productive way - after all, I take it that informed personal choice is a pretty major ideal in Reform Judaism, and what better way to get that across to the campers than involving them in it? But it needs to be framed within the movement's own framework.<BR/><BR/>I recognize that this is can be one of those terrible cases of favoring discretion over integrity on the part of the staff members, but at a certain point, they should know going into a summer at Kutz what is expected of them, and if they feel that it's damaging to their integrity, this might not be the camp for them.dlevyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783559025411133092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-31670608301434995442007-08-15T15:50:00.000-04:002007-08-15T15:50:00.000-04:00This is fascinating, and BZ's response is terrific...This is fascinating, and BZ's response is terrific. The whole episode reminds me of one of the reasons I so often say I have "no use" for the movements. And by that I mean, when they stop being movements, with the energy flowing upward, and become institutionalized hierarchies that impose their will on the participants (who may even become mere obsevers--interesting word, that).<BR/><BR/>But I have a question here. I am naive, in that I am "three months old." I just became a Jew (Reform auspices) last Shavuot, and my total of communal Jewish experience amounts to less than two years. But much of what I read about Reform services seems like stereotype to me, based on my limited experience.<BR/><BR/>For instance, our congregation's rabbi and cantor and other leaders regularly "spice things up," with variations in the liturgy and the music. We have a substantial amount of Hebrew in the services and because we still often use one of the versions of the Gates of Prayer, much of that Hebrew is without transliteration. And more than half the men and many of the women wear a kippah, and many a tallit. And, never a choir, except at High Holy Days.<BR/><BR/>So, how unusual is this for Reform? Most of the discussion around this story implies it is not typical. I know about "classical" or "high" Reform--one member even calls himself a "dinosaur" for never wearing a kippa or tzitzit, openly disdaining kashrut, and wishing for a choir and organ. But I get the idea that "dinosaurs" (his word, not mine) are more common elsewhere in Reform communities (especially east coast) than in my community. Correct?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-32272112171763695922007-08-15T15:02:00.000-04:002007-08-15T15:02:00.000-04:00Anonymous makes a good point.When I first read the...Anonymous makes a good point.<BR/><BR/>When I first read the article my response is, to quote Reb Yogi, "it's deja vu all over again." I first put on tefillin in 1974 at Kutz camp. I first saw a tallit katan or met someone who wore a kipa all the time at Kutz camp, in 1974. So all of this is nothing new; Kutz teens have been experimenting with aspects of the tradition which classical Reform rejected for well over thirty years and probably longer.<BR/><BR/>And in Reform contexts prayer is a "program." When I was at HUC in the early to mid 1980s, students would compete with each other to see how "creative" they could be in leading services at the HUC chapel. I generally lead services unchanged out of the Gates of Prayer and people would sometimes remark how refreshing it was. I remember one time announcing that "today we will have a special uncreative service."<BR/><BR/>Reform ideology should imply the right to make an informed choice to observe kashrut, follow the matbea shel tefila, lay tefillin or refrain from melacha on Shabbat. But in practice, it rarely does. Which goes some way to explaining why I'm one of quite a number of HUC-ordained rabbis who are no longer Reform.Rabbi Charles Arianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02936036682918877496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1863726265672186312007-08-15T14:30:00.000-04:002007-08-15T14:30:00.000-04:00However, I was countered with the expressed unders...<I>However, I was countered with the expressed understanding that the point was not necessarily to expose the students to a different method of worship, but to worship as God wanted us to (or as was "correct").</I><BR/><BR/>I think if they could feel more secure that they'll be able to pray the way they want and not feel like they're fighting a battle, they would be more open to exploring different types of prayer as an educational experience.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-76312746642102156802007-08-15T13:25:00.000-04:002007-08-15T13:25:00.000-04:00Good job.Good job.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-901630221984226562007-08-15T13:23:00.000-04:002007-08-15T13:23:00.000-04:00One of the complaints I heard consistently through...One of the complaints I heard consistently throughout the summer from my peers who were at Kutz was exactly what Rabbi Abraham mentioned. Prayer had become a program. Participants and staff alike bemoaned that it had become more about what the campers could get out of a service than what they could put into it. With human goals and agendas rather than Godly ones, the service DOES just become a program. <BR/>I think a big part of the issue at Kutz, and one probably of interest to BZ given his work on hilchot pluralism, is that people simply want to pray in different ways, but all of them consider Kutz to be THEIR home community. Because they view Kutz as their spiritual home, many are reluctant to experiment in a place where they have been able to pray in the manner they consider their own, whereas at their homes, many participants have no opportunity for spirited musical worship in hebrew that includes more of the liturgy than most Reform synagogues do. <BR/><BR/>So home becomes the place where they respect minhag hamakom, engaging begrudgingly in saying shabbat candle blessings as many as three times in a night, or not being given the slightest chance to pray more than the first three blessings of the Amidah. And at Kutz, when they are asked to engage in something different, they become defensive of the one place where they have experiened worship they identified with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-77462380393134511562007-08-15T09:15:00.000-04:002007-08-15T09:15:00.000-04:00As a Reform Rabbi and Kutz visiting faculty (altho...As a Reform Rabbi and Kutz visiting faculty (although not on the week referenced in the article), I thought I should weigh in.<BR/><BR/>1)I had the same reaction to the article, although I will admit I could not have stated it as cogently or thoroughly as done above. Kol hakavod.<BR/><BR/>2)Having had a conversation when I returned to Kutz later in the summer with a senior participant, I was fascinated by the two of us having the same opinion in opposite directions. We both wanted participants to feel empowered rather than compelled to try new forms of worship. However, while I felt this was best accomplished by participants being exposed to several different types of services and participating with open minds; he felt that not allowing participants to pray as they wished (in this case, davening to an all Hebrew service)no matter what was prepared by service leaders, was stifling that same creativity. Ironically, although we left the conversation confirmed in our original attitudes, he thanked me for the conversation.<BR/><BR/>3) Working with youth leadership in another NFTY venue helping to prepare t'fillah, I have tried to help participants frame desired "traditional" prayer in a manner that is educational rather than mandated. I suggested that we view t'fillah analogously to a program - in that we should attempt to define what we want participants to get out of the experience. However, I was countered with the expressed understanding that the point was not necessarily to expose the students to a different method of worship, but to worship as God wanted us to (or as was "correct"). So, my caveat is that, inasmuch as experimentation with styles of worship that include more Orthodox or "traditional" developments are part of an ideal to explore personal feelings about communal worship - fine; if the "experiment" is really an imposition of an orthodoxy, then there is a real conflict with what I consider Reform Jewish values.<BR/><BR/>Again, thank you for your fine commentary on this article. I was troubled by its presentation and am comforted that there are informed Reform Jews discussing the issues raised at a serious level.<BR/><BR/>Rabbi Joel N. AbrahamSholomRavhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11950949356964840799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-3723896442869769382007-08-15T06:28:00.000-04:002007-08-15T06:28:00.000-04:00this is a superb response and in some shorter form...this is a superb response and in some shorter form should be sent to the Jewish Week. Yasha Koach<BR/>Rabbi Steven BurtonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com