tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post2646761092898796178..comments2023-12-27T03:40:39.548-05:00Comments on Mah Rabu מה רבו: ONE DAY ONLY! Part 1a: ReformBZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-18285296537788578212015-10-08T22:34:04.885-04:002015-10-08T22:34:04.885-04:00Insulting Diaspora Jews is a great way to make us ...Insulting Diaspora Jews is a great way to make us want to come live with you. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10954195529139489235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-80614373178343999192008-09-24T17:20:00.000-04:002008-09-24T17:20:00.000-04:00The best place to learn about the authority of Ref...The best place to learn about the authority of Reform Halakhah is in the introduction of Dr. Mark Washofsky's book "Jewish Living: A Guide to Contemporary Reform Practice." A great article about the theories of Reform/Liberal Halakhah is his article "Against Method: Liberal Halakhah Between Theory and Practice" which can be found electronically on his HUC faculty webpage http://www.huc.edu/faculty/faculty/washofsky.shtml .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-88959565472671624952008-09-23T11:25:00.000-04:002008-09-23T11:25:00.000-04:00Even if you don't identify with the Reform movemen...<I>Even if you don't identify with the Reform movement (you do seem to write about it a lot, though)</I><BR/><BR/>I didn't say I don't identify. I said I'm not a spokesperson for the Reform movement (so my positions do not reflect official movement positions), and I'm not a (dues-paying) member.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-9419195652554061532008-09-23T09:23:00.000-04:002008-09-23T09:23:00.000-04:00Although some Jews don't yet see it, history has d...Although some Jews don't yet see it, history has decided the relationship between the individual Jew and Eretz Israel. First, the question is halachic. There is a positive mitzvah to live in Eretz Israel. Almost all the traditional halachic authorities agree on that. The question then arises, is it mandatory, or simply praiseworthy?<BR/>This is not clear. Since it is a halachic question, then the question of "pikuach nefesh" comes in, which I should have stated to preempt your question about whether I was "opting out" when I said Jews were not required to make aliyah if there was danger of starvation there due to the economic situation, or danger on the roads leading there, etc. I have pointed out those impediments to aliyah don't exist today, which is why millions of Jews have made aliyah in the 60 years of the existence of the state.<BR/>But, now there is a bigger factor. Are we free agents in relating to this question? In Sefer Shmot (Book of Exodus), the Jews are described as leaving Egypt in the wake of the plague of the first born "hamushim". The simple meaning of this is "armed". However, Rashi says it means "one-fifth", i.e. only one-fifth of the Benei Israel that were in Egypt prior to the plagues, actually left. What happened to the other 4/5? They didn't want to leave and they died during the plague of darkness. Thus, history determined the what the individual Jew was to do...he or she was to leave Egypt and head for Eretz Israel.<BR/><BR/>In 1917 the Balfour Declaration was promulgated. Just like in ancient Egypt, the Jews debated whether this was a good thing or not. Most Orthodox leaders were ambivalent, some were militanly for, some militantly against. The Conservative movement, as I understand it, was solidly for, and the Reform was predominately against (if I am wrong, please correct me). People said things like "we now have full religious freedom here in Germany, we are prosperous and the new democratic Weimar Constitution grants us full rights...we even have a Jewish Foreign Minister (Walther Rathenau)". Others, in places like Poland said "the leaders of the Zionist movement in Eretz Israel are anti-relgious, better to stay here in Poland where religiuos life is better".<BR/>Just as before, in Egypt, circumstances intervened and decided the issue. Thus, there are greater forces at work. They are guiding us home to Eretz Israel. Yes, there Jews are unprecendently prosperous in America. But honestly, can you be sure this situation will last forever? I also see a spiritual sickness in American Jews of all persuasions (O, R , C and unaffliated). Not just assimilation in the form of intermarriage, but an internalization of foreign values that make a mockery of authentic Jewish values (and yes, there are such things). This is happening in the most Haredi circles in addition to more liberal ones. I heard it stated in the name of Shimshon Rafael Hirsch that he said whereas the Anusim (Marranos) were "goyim on the outside Jews on the inside, his followers (the Germanized Neo-Orthodox) were inverse Anusim, i.e. Jews on the outside and goyim on the inside".<BR/>This is a signficant reason that Orthodox aliyah, at least, is slowly but steadily increasing over the years and explains the success of the Nefesh B'Nefesh aliyah program. And in spite of the supposed decline in interest in Zionism, which you claim is present in Israel itself, the Birthright Program which brings unaffiliated young Jews to Israel, is also a big success.<BR/>Thus, the challenge is thrown down. Even if you don't identify with the Reform movement (you do seem to write about it a lot, though), whatever philosophy it is you subscribe to will never get off the ground in Israel if you stay in America. It is only in Israel that a Jew can live a fully Jewish life, immersed in his or her culture and language and with the Jewish calendar defining our time framework. There you have it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-42655176398780395372008-09-23T00:37:00.000-04:002008-09-23T00:37:00.000-04:00Another reason why entanglement between government...Another reason why entanglement between government and religion is to be avoided...BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-49387785462111928902008-09-23T00:20:00.000-04:002008-09-23T00:20:00.000-04:00Don't mean to make MORE irrelevant posts, but on t...Don't mean to make MORE irrelevant posts, but on the subject of Classical Reform, though there was no "central body" per se in Europe, Reform was aligned with local governments, as permitted by the system, and they used their power to shut down kosher slaughterhouses and mikvaot. I do believe that R' Samson Hirsch split off and declared Auschrift due to the overbearing control of Reform interests in Frankfurt.B.BarNavihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07860632239759681393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-49927304025969979582008-09-22T20:38:00.000-04:002008-09-22T20:38:00.000-04:00Y. Ben-David writes:If we assume that a Jew's natu...Y. Ben-David writes:<BR/><I>If we assume that a Jew's natural place is in Eretz Israel (and I do make that assumption),</I><BR/><BR/>I don't make that assumption, so therein lies our disagreement.<BR/><BR/><I> then the fact that aliyah is much easier than in the past is extremely relevant. In the past centuries, when poverty wracked the Jewish community here and things like plagues swept throught the population and pirates attacked people travelling there, then many scholars said that it was not MANDATORY for a Jew to live in Eretz Israel.</I><BR/><BR/>Now it's my turn to be puzzled. Are you saying that your commitment to Israel and the Jewish people is conditional? You will only consider making aliyah if you can avoid poverty, plagues, and pirates?<BR/><BR/><I>I also do not understand why you stated that you objected to government financial support for Reform congregations</I><BR/><BR/>If you had <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2008/05/nothing-in-streets-looks-any-different.html" REL="nofollow">followed the link</A>, you would understand.<BR/><BR/><I>I am getting a feeling that the tradition of extreme ambivalence to Zionism in the Reform movement is playing a part in your thinking. I think this ambivalence has been a major factor in the failure of the Reform movement to make any real headway in Israeli society, even though most Israeli are not Orthodox/religious.</I><BR/><BR/>Because no native Israelis are ambivalent about Zionism?<BR/><BR/><I>I think every Jew must be engaged in Israel's welfare and future, and if the Reform movement opts out of this (I am not saying that is the case, but as I said, I am getting a whiff of it here) then it is their loss,</I><BR/><BR/>As I already said in this comment thread, I am not a spokesman for the Reform movement. In fact, I'm not even a member.<BR/><BR/><I>and they should not complain if they don't like they they are viewed in Israel.</I><BR/><BR/>Show me the part in this post/thread where I was complaining. I live in the United States (where Jews have religious freedom) and am happy to stay here; you're the one who suggested that this was a problem.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-83460909131513921072008-09-22T16:38:00.000-04:002008-09-22T16:38:00.000-04:00BZ-I find your last comment quite puzzling. You sa...BZ-I find your last comment quite puzzling. You said:<BR/>-------------------------------<BR/>You're the one who said "Its a lot easier today than it was centuries ago", suggesting that this should influence someone's decision whether or not to make aliyah. And let's not equate Israel with the Jewish people.<BR/>--------------------------------<BR/><BR/>If we assume that a Jew's natural place is in Eretz Israel (and I do make that assumption), then the fact that aliyah is much easier than in the past is extremely relevant. In the past centuries, when poverty wracked the Jewish community here and things like plagues swept throught the population and pirates attacked people travelling there, then many scholars said that it was not MANDATORY for a Jew to live in Eretz Israel. Thank G-d, those things are not problems today, so those excuses for not making aliyah are not relevant any more.<BR/><BR/>Regarding "equating Israel with the Jewish people", well, the people of the world do it, whether we like it or not. Israel is called "The Jewish State" by everybody, and that is a big reason why it is admired by some (mostly in the West, Africa and Far East), and why it is hated by others (much of the Muslim world, but not all of it). The question of whether one likes what the government does or not is not relevant...I despise the current gov't, but I still view Israel as "The Jewish State". Almost half of world Jewry lives here, and if G-d forbid, we were to go down here, no Jew ANYWHERE in the world would be safe.<BR/><BR/>I also do not understand why you stated that you objected to government financial support for Reform congregations (it is ironic I as an "O" support it, at least under certain conditions, and you as an "R" object to it). Is it because you thing the American-style separation of religion and state should apply in Israel as well? Few people agree with that, even among anti-religious circles. Taxpayers are entitled to services for their money and religion (applied to all religious groups in Israel) is a worthy recepient.<BR/><BR/>I am going to be blunt with you, I am getting a feeling that the tradition of extreme ambivalence to Zionism in the Reform movement is playing a part in your thinking. I think this ambivalence has been a major factor in the failure of the Reform movement to make any real headway in Israeli society, even though most Israeli are not Orthodox/religious. They simply are not receptive of Reform's message and they are aware of the Reform's problematic attitude to Israel, not just in the past, but in recent time's as well, particularly when Israel was under attack (Eric Yoffie's unfortunate comments explaining why they would not send their NFTY youth groups to Israel during the suicide bomber campaign whereas NCSY, Benei Akiva and others were continuing those programs).<BR/><BR/>I think every Jew must be engaged in Israel's welfare and future, and if the Reform movement opts out of this (I am not saying that is the case, but as I said, I am getting a whiff of it here) then it is their loss, and they should not complain if they don't like they they are viewed in Israel. This is in direct contradiction to Reform explicity claim to be concerned about the welfare of Judaism and the Jewish people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-10555358564237908202008-09-21T19:01:00.000-04:002008-09-21T19:01:00.000-04:00Y. Ben-David writes:BZ-Are you saying that your co...Y. Ben-David writes:<BR/><I>BZ-Are you saying that your commitment to Israel and the Jewish people is conditional? </I><BR/><BR/>I'm not saying anything, I'm just asking a question. You're the one who said "We are waiting with open arms for all of you", so I was asking how much you meant it. You're the one who said "Its a lot easier today than it was centuries ago", suggesting that this should influence someone's decision whether or not to make aliyah. And let's not equate Israel with the Jewish people.<BR/><BR/><I>I believe there are only something like 15 congregations in the whole country...please correct me if I am wrong</I><BR/><BR/>You're wrong - there are at least 24 listed on the IMPJ website.<BR/><BR/><I>I heard that a Reform congregation in Modi'in is getting gov't funding. I have no objection to that IF there is a presence of Reform Jews on the ground in Israel.</I><BR/><BR/>I actually <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2008/05/nothing-in-streets-looks-any-different.html" REL="nofollow">would</A> object.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-38911986233210703472008-09-21T18:45:00.000-04:002008-09-21T18:45:00.000-04:00BZ-Are you saying that your commitment to Israel a...BZ-Are you saying that your commitment to Israel and the Jewish people is conditional? You will only consider making aliyah if the government carries out policies that you like? Is that how Israel was built...by people saying "I want somebody ELSE to make sure to arrange everything the way I want it, THEN I will consider coming?<BR/>The fact is that there are very few self-identified Reform Jews in Israel (I believe there are only something like 15 congregations in the whole country...please correct me if I am wrong). If you consider yourself a Reform Jew and you remain in the Exile, how do you expect the Reform movement to grow? Golda Meir was asked when the Conservative movement would get official state recognition...she answered "when 1 million Conservative Jews make aliyah". Well, I throw down the same challenge to you.<BR/>I am Orthodox and I would welcome mass aliyah by Reform and Conservative Jews because I believe in Zionism. Come and build your own Reform congregations. I heard that a Reform congregation in Modi'in is getting gov't funding. I have no objection to that IF there is a presence of Reform Jews on the ground in Israel. IT IS UP TO YOU, no one else, to determine the future of Reform Judaism in Israel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-53780750565170777632008-09-21T10:47:00.000-04:002008-09-21T10:47:00.000-04:00Isn't another reason for YT2 so that the habit is ...<I>Isn't another reason for YT2 so that the habit is not lost in case the situation changes?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, that reason is given in the Talmud, but (as noted in the teshuva) is almost as obsolete as the original reason. Even the Rambam no longer mentions it. If we ever get to the point where there are no Jews who know how to calculate the dates of the holidays (and no more 100-year calendar books lying around, and no computer programs with the calendar rules coded in), it's also likely that there will be no Jews left who know the calendar even vaguely enough to figure out when the *two* days of yom tov should be (such that one of them is correct).<BR/><BR/><I>As for why YT2 doesn't seem so different from kosher slaughter wrt the historical US Reform movement: Just as we have a calendar and know when the holidays are, we now have captive bolt stunning so cows don't feel pain. Sanctifying food and treating meat differently are pretty generic and sound just as modern as the Israel/diaspora explanation for YT2. I honestly don't see the difference from the perspective of US Reform psak since for about a century it dismissed the traditional sources about kashrut.</I><BR/><BR/>So I think that someone who inherited a practice of no kashrut at all and then decided that they wanted to sanctify their eating by eating only meat that (by whatever method) didn't involve cruelty, while not incorporating any of classical kashrut, isn't necessarily wrong, even if that's not the practice that I choose. But I think that someone who wanted to achieve these goals through adopting classical kashrut, despite having a longstanding tradition of not observing kashrut (such that, without any context, kashrut would seem arbitrary), would be justified, because kashrut predates the denominational split and is part of all Reform Jews' shared history as well.<BR/><BR/>And likewise, two-day yom tov is part of all Diaspora Jews' shared history. And because of this, I would go so far as to say that if I were looking to add extra days of yom tov, I would choose 23 Tishrei before I would choose <A HREF="http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09a12.htm#32" REL="nofollow">15 Cheshvan</A> or some random date, because my ancestors (if you go far enough back) have observed 23 Tishrei as a yom tov. But why would I be looking to observe additional days of yom tov that aren't in the Torah and aren't part of my minhag? What goals would be achieved through this? The CCAR teshuva explains why adding days as yom tov shouldn't be done frivolously.<BR/><BR/>Re treating meat differently as a "modern" position: in many circles, modern views of kashrut have gone entirely the opposite direction, with even canned vegetables (outside Israel, so agricultural laws aren't relevant) requiring a hechsher.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-53052199689433045152008-09-21T10:17:00.000-04:002008-09-21T10:17:00.000-04:00Brandon-Do you have a link to the relevant post(s)...Brandon-<BR/>Do you have a link to the relevant post(s)? Maybe I'll include it in a future post in this series.<BR/><BR/>Y. Ben-David-<BR/>And will Reform Jews be welcomed with open arms as Reform Jews?BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-43120256375026479802008-09-21T05:21:00.000-04:002008-09-21T05:21:00.000-04:00There is an easy solution to the "2-day-Yom-Tov" q...There is an easy solution to the "2-day-Yom-Tov" quandry (excluding, Rosh Hashana, of course). That is to make aliyah to Eretz Israel. We are waiting with open arms for all of you living in the EXILE (not, 'diaspora', mind you) to come home. Its a lot easier today than it was centuries ago. BZ-we need good physics teachers here in Israel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-76339876625078836442008-09-20T21:57:00.000-04:002008-09-20T21:57:00.000-04:00It is worth noting that some quasi-official URJ ap...It is worth noting that some quasi-official URJ appendages have suggested, if not openly advocated, 2-day Yom Tov: I'm thinking specifically of the "Ten Minutes of Torah" mailing list. (Note "quasi-"; I doubt the rabbis and cantors who contribute sichot are considered to be speaking for anyone other than themselves — but it's still done under the URJ name and umbrella.)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02196401009454414996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-63474654567898667462008-09-19T15:24:00.000-04:002008-09-19T15:24:00.000-04:00Isn't another reason for YT2 so that the habit is ...Isn't another reason for YT2 so that the habit is not lost in case the situation changes? <BR/><BR/>To phrase that in terms of another widespread practice: many people learn kashrut with eggs as if the eggs they were using were potentially fertilized, even though normal supermarket eggs are unfertilized. <BR/><BR/>As for why YT2 doesn't seem so different from kosher slaughter wrt the historical US Reform movement: Just as we have a calendar and know when the holidays are, we now have captive bolt stunning so cows don't feel pain. Sanctifying food and treating meat differently are pretty generic and sound just as modern as the Israel/diaspora explanation for YT2. I honestly don't see the difference from the perspective of US Reform psak since for about a century it dismissed the traditional sources about kashrut. <BR/><BR/>(I know the Germany Reform movement kept kosher. The first time my childhood rabbi ate non-kosher food was his first day at HUC.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1783570918481603652008-09-19T11:52:00.000-04:002008-09-19T11:52:00.000-04:00Yes, I mean that 2 days of Rosh Hashanah is univer...Yes, I mean that 2 days of Rosh Hashanah is universal (or close to it) in the Canadian Reform movement.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-75951225563363067492008-09-18T23:28:00.000-04:002008-09-18T23:28:00.000-04:00Not just in Canada - as I said in the post, the te...Not just in Canada - as I said in the post, the teshuva cites a 1993 survey saying that 38% of UAHC congregations (US and Canada) responding to the survey observed 2 days of Rosh Hashanah. (They add, "Anecdotal evidence suggests to us that the figure is higher today.") This is a consistent position, because the historical origin of 2 days of Rosh Hashanah is different from the origin of 2 days of other yamim tovim, and the standard practice in Israel (in all denominations as well as civil religion) is 2 days of Rosh Hashanah and 1 day of everything else.<BR/><BR/>Or do you mean that 2 days of Rosh Hashanah is universal (or close to it) in the Canadian Reform movement?BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-84276267878333054472008-09-18T22:00:00.000-04:002008-09-18T22:00:00.000-04:00Another interesting factor to consider is Reform s...Another interesting factor to consider is Reform shuls in Canada which observe two days of Rosh Hashanah, but only one day of Yom Tov on the rest of the Chagim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-76516094939404402592008-09-18T08:14:00.000-04:002008-09-18T08:14:00.000-04:00When the Reform rabbanus uses the argument of "cre...<I>When the Reform rabbanus uses the argument of "creating holy space which only the Sanhedrin can" in declaring Yom Tov, I feel that it steps on itself a bit here.</I><BR/><BR/>This argument needs to be understood in context. They are referring specifically to creating a yom tov where none existed before. So there is no issue with a community observing a particular day as yom tov this year if it observed that day as yom tov last year; the issue is with turning a day from chol into yom tov, which requires much stricter scrutiny. (And if you say that some people don't observe any days of yom tov at all, I would say that even if they don't observe Shavuot, they wouldn't say "Today is not Shavuot", which differentiates them from a movement that has been saying "Today is not Shavuot" on the 7th of Sivan for over 160 years.)<BR/><BR/><I>Which Begs The Question:</I><BR/><BR/>No it <A HREF="http://begthequestion.info" REL="nofollow">doesn't</A>.<BR/><BR/><I>How much of 2-day YT is acceptable in Reform practice? First of all, is the URJ pluralistic in its views of the practice of its congregants/congregations? (As opposed to Classical Reform in Germany, which was very forceful in imposing its practices. But I digress.) If so, does it allow for different practices among different congregations?</I><BR/><BR/>Yes and yes. I don't speak for the URJ, and the CCAR Responsa Committee doesn't speak for the URJ. The URJ does not enforce any kind of ritual standards among its congregations as far as I know. I can't imagine that a congregation that observes 2 days of yom tov that applied for URJ membership would be rejected on these grounds. (And even if Classical Reform congregations were forceful in regard to individuals, I don't think there was an organized body that enforced standards of practice on congregations.)<BR/><BR/><I>Knowing that many come to Reform from O and C backgrounds, could a congregation that practices 2 days theoretically be established on the basis of minhag avoteinu? (Of course, as you said, they are free to practice two days on their own even if the congregation observes one.)</I><BR/><BR/>I explicitly said in the post that I thought this would be valid. And the teshuva says that, although 1 day of yom tov is standard in the Reform movement, any congregation is free to observe 2 days; they had just better have a good reason (i.e. a better one than scheduling Confirmation) and be serious about it. The relevant passage: "We are entitled to restore the observance of yom tov sheni and/or the second day of Rosh Hashanah, just as we are entitled to restore any number of ritual practices discarded by our predecessors. But if and when we do so, let us not forget that it is a festival that we are creating."BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-59944913831600963312008-09-18T01:50:00.000-04:002008-09-18T01:50:00.000-04:00As someone who observes two days of YT AND RH, as ...As someone who observes two days of YT AND RH, as well as someone who believes (believed?) the Reform movement to be pluralistic, I found the tone of this post to be grating, and quite the bit condescending, at the least.<BR/><BR/>When the Reform rabbanus uses the argument of "creating holy space which only the Sanhedrin can" in declaring Yom Tov, I feel that it steps on itself a bit here. Okay, it might apply in this case where the congregation was declaring a second day (where it otherwise would observe only one) just because it was more convenient for the Confirmands. (In other words, just because.) So then when the rest of us decide to observe a second day of YT due to being in the diaspora (or living in Israel but having origins in galut), are WE being that arrogant, placing ourselves at a level of the rabbanim of days long gone, and declaring by fiat a festival without rational basis? Hell, why would we even observe ONE day of Hag, or even keep track of months, since the power to declare Rosh Hodesh was reserved for the Sanhedrin? On a given night I can see the actual molad, but can I announce the Month of Nisan and celebrate Pesah on this date when everyone else is celebrating it on another?<BR/><BR/>The answer (not THE answer, but at least one of them) lies in convention. We follow the convention of a fixed calendar, and some of us follow the convention of second-day YT. They haven't been mutually exclusive in the past, and despite your tireless argumentation,* they aren't today. Likewise, there's the convention of Israel and general Reform of using a fixed calendar and one day of YT (and for Reform, 1-day RH, which requires explanation), which is also acceptable. And then there's the "Torah-true" Karaite convention of preserving announcements of months and observing one day only! (Whether that is an acceptable convention is up for debate.) We don't pretend to be the Sanhedrin when we do these things - we're just following convention.<BR/><BR/>Which Begs The Question: How much of 2-day YT is acceptable in Reform practice? First of all, is the URJ pluralistic in its views of the practice of its congregants/congregations? (As opposed to Classical Reform in Germany, which was very forceful in imposing its practices. But I digress.) If so, does it allow for different practices among different congregations? Knowing that many come to Reform from O and C backgrounds, could a congregation that practices 2 days theoretically be established on the basis of minhag avoteinu? (Of course, as you said, they are free to practice two days on their own even if the congregation observes one.)<BR/><BR/>Or is this simply a matter of "we have our own sets of practices; who are YOU to question them"?<BR/><BR/>*You said it yourself that it's a one-track mind...B.BarNavihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07860632239759681393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-64063722193907736792008-09-17T23:44:00.000-04:002008-09-17T23:44:00.000-04:00JZ:My point is that the motivation behind the minh...JZ:<BR/>My point is that the motivation behind the minhag of 2nd day yom tov in the era of the fixed calendar is that it's "minhag avoteinu b'yadeinu", and nothing else, so that if it's not actually "minhag avoteinu" anymore, then it's not anything. (There have been apologetic interpretations about the Diaspora vs. Israel, but those are very late. I'd be interested in knowing precisely when that entered the discourse. I'm guessing after the State of Israel, or at least modern Zionism, began. See discussion in the comments <A HREF="http://jewschool.com/2008/04/25/13331/a-pesach-top-ten/" REL="nofollow">here</A>.)<BR/><BR/>This is not the case for the other practices you mention. There are many substantive motivations for kosher slaughter: sanctifying the act of eating (along with the other elements of kashrut), preventing pain to animals, acknowledging that eating meat should have a different status from other things we eat, etc. Likewise, even if chickens don't lactate, the prohibition of mixing chicken and milk isn't so ridiculous once "don't cook a kid in its mother's milk" is expanded to a general prohibition on mixing meat and milk. There is already other precedent for classifying chicken as "meat" -- e.g. chickens (like mammals and unlike fish) require ritual slaughter and draining of blood.<BR/><BR/>In any case, speaking for myself, I grew up in a house where we didn't mix chicken with milk, and only had kosher-slaughtered meat, so this <B>is</B> my minhag.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-17907020642580085012008-09-17T23:27:00.000-04:002008-09-17T23:27:00.000-04:00alan/scotty writes:I still don't understand the wo...alan/scotty writes:<BR/><I>I still don't understand the workings of Reform halacha. Can you do a post or five hundred on that?</I><BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2007/01/limmud-ny-reform-halakhah-panel.html" REL="nofollow">Here</A> are <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2007/01/limmud-ny-reform-halakhah-panel-dvd.html" REL="nofollow">two</A>, but there's a lot more to be said.<BR/><BR/><I>What are the extents of obligation?</I><BR/><BR/>Good question.<BR/><BR/><I>With whom does authority rest?</I><BR/><BR/>As I <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2008/02/ramban-on-autonomy-and-authority.html" REL="nofollow">understand</A> it, authority rests with God, but no one can directly discern God's will, so each individual has interpretive authority in practice.<BR/><BR/><I>What is the role of teshuvot?</I><BR/><BR/>According to the CCAR Responsa Committee, "responsa provide guidance, not governance. As a body of literature, the responsa published by the Reform Movement reveal a broad consensus as to mainstream Reform Jewish thinking on important issues facing contemporary Judaism. Individual rabbis and communities retain responsibility, however, to make their own determinations as to the stance they will take on individual issues."<BR/><BR/>This may be theoretically true in the Conservative movement as well (that CJLS teshuvot are not binding on individual rabbis), but it's <B>actually</B> true in the Reform movement -- even the movement institutions aren't necessarily bound by CCAR teshuvot, and I'm not aware of any instances of news crews waiting outside with bated breath to hear what the CCAR Responsa Committee will announce.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-60263155872265709242008-09-17T23:07:00.000-04:002008-09-17T23:07:00.000-04:00RabbiRosenberg writes:It may be just to say that a...RabbiRosenberg writes:<BR/><I>It may be just to say that a) they have a right to do things their way, b) the longevity of their practice isn't 100% irrelevant to us and c) they can't change.</I><BR/><BR/>a) What do "rights" have to do with anything? (In America, we have a right to observe any religion we want, but that's a non sequitur.) And how is a Reform congregation that exclusively observes 1 day of yom tov impinging on anyone else's ability to observe 2 days?<BR/><BR/>c) Who says they can't change? "They" do, but why should that be relevant to what Reform Jews do? This idea, that some people should be more flexible because other people "can't", sounds like <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2005/07/taxonomy-of-jewish-pluralism.html" REL="nofollow">Stage 1 pluralism</A>, which I don't think is a good idea for pluralistic inter/trans/nondenominational communities, let alone for Reform communities deciding internally on their practices. Interdenominational interactions have to come from a place of strength, and being secure in one's own practices and beliefs.<BR/><BR/><I>So, if we want to include k'lal yisrael as one of our values, then trying to find a middle ground (e.g. not holding any large, public events on Yom Tov Sheni) might be totally appropriate.</I><BR/><BR/>That may be the case, if these large public events are trying to be inclusive to the broader Jewish community, including those who observe two days. But that is not acknowledging yom tov sheini per se, so much as acknowledging that there are people who (for whatever reason) observe yom tov sheini. Likewise, a Jewish congregation might decide not to schedule an event for Christmas, in order to avoid creating conflicts for members with interfaith families, and to give non-Jewish employees the day off. But that's not the same as acknowledging Christmas on its official calendar, or including a special Torah reading when Christmas falls on Shabbat.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-33228387791084192822008-09-17T18:16:00.000-04:002008-09-17T18:16:00.000-04:00BZ, Interesting post. About your statement that i...BZ, Interesting post. About your statement that it's unjustifiable for someone with a long Reform background to acknowledge a 2nd day of yom tov since there is no other purpose: Couldn't that logic could be extended to other mitzvot not stated explicitly in the Torah, such as chicken with milk or even kosher slaughter? <BR/><BR/>I believe that purpose of not mixing chicken with milk is unclear in the gemara, and pretty much just a takana, just like with 2nd day yom tov, right? So the only reason not to mix chicken and dairy is to concur with the rest of Jewish society. <BR/><BR/>With the more outrageous case of kosher slaughter: obviously, the exact method is described in the gemara, but the Reform movement and individual units of custom chose to abandon it. My paternal grandfather's entire town transplanted itself from the same town in Germany, and stopped bringing a shochet in around the same time as the treife banquet. It seems like your logic could be stretched to apply here, as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-28104804680385453572008-09-17T13:12:00.000-04:002008-09-17T13:12:00.000-04:00I still don't understand the workings of Reform ha...I still don't understand the workings of Reform halacha. Can you do a post or five hundred on that?<BR/><BR/>What are the extents of obligation? With whom does authority rest? What is the role of teshuvot?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com