tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post114714695867131674..comments2023-12-27T03:40:39.548-05:00Comments on Mah Rabu מה רבו: Self-sufficient prayerBZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147634349140070652006-05-14T15:19:00.000-04:002006-05-14T15:19:00.000-04:00AK--I think that Knitter's point was merely that o...AK--<BR/><BR/>I think that Knitter's point was merely that one can be yotzei on kiddush without drinking (though it would seem to be dispreferred ab initio)--not making any broader point about the listener talking between borei peri ha-gefen and her or his own drinking. That said, the point about the mekadesh not needing to drink is contested, and the Shulhan Arukh says that it is "appropriate to be concerned" for the stringent view that the mekadesh must make the kiddush (OH 271:14).<BR/><BR/>Also, while one should not speak between the berakha and the drinking of the wine (or bread, or any other sustenance), one is yotzei post facto if the words were relevant to the wine (OH 167:6). Indeed, remaking the berakha in this case would be a veritable berakha le-vatala.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147458411044010822006-05-12T14:26:00.000-04:002006-05-12T14:26:00.000-04:00AK-Um, not to point out halacha, but Knitter, if o...AK-<BR/><BR/><I>Um, not to point out halacha, but Knitter, if one wants to be yotzei on the "borei pri hagafen" of the person saying kiddush, (and want to drink the wine without saying their own bracha) - then one can not speak until one has had a drink, otherwise they would be causing a hefsek (which is the same for any bracha said until consumated).</I><BR/><BR/>You might be right about the hefsek, if they want to be yotzei the borei p'ri ha gafen, but I think that the whole not talking thing is actually minhag. But I don't know enough about it...Knitter of shiny thingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10495339297497300925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147432476320378922006-05-12T07:14:00.000-04:002006-05-12T07:14:00.000-04:00The halacha isn't that you personally need to drin...<I>The halacha isn't that you personally need to drink the wine, it's that you hear kiddush, and the wine is drunk, not even necessarily by the maker of kiddush.</I><BR/><BR/>Um, not to point out halacha, but Knitter, if one wants to be yotzei on the "borei pri hagafen" of the person saying kiddush, (and want to drink the wine without saying their own bracha) - then one can not speak until one has had a drink, otherwise they would be causing a hefsek (which is the same for any bracha said until consumated). <BR/><BR/>I'm sorry to nit-pick, but it is a pet-peeve of mine when people pasken halacha incorrectly (the same annoyance as people who can't tell the difference between they're being machmir and the other opinions are in fact, not assur).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147351631298571282006-05-11T08:47:00.000-04:002006-05-11T08:47:00.000-04:00Yes, the factual errors are maddening. I had almo...Yes, the factual errors are maddening. I had almost exactly the same response to Rushkoff as you did. The conclusions are great, but his argument is missing both theoretical and factual/historical grounding. I guess its up to us to write the book which combines both.<BR/><BR/>PS Im flying back to the US motzash, hope to see ya sometime before we gather at havurah.Chorus of Apeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12408481444277244082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147277671473929882006-05-10T12:14:00.000-04:002006-05-10T12:14:00.000-04:00perhaps implicit in the system of drawing lots and...perhaps implicit in the system of drawing lots and then giving a dvar torah on the spot is the assumption that everyone has already spent time learning the parsha and teasing out interesting points. this seems like a neat system. think about how much better the discussions can be when the material is fresh in everyone's mind and everyone has developed a thought or series of thoughts which are reasonably new. <BR/>sounds like a neat system to me. <BR/><BR/>occasionally when i was in college the folks on the board would forget to assign the dvar torah and i would get about 3-5 minutes to put some abbreviated thoughts toghether. it was supprisingly exhilirating. <BR/><BR/>i suggest it. <BR/><BR/>as for the wine business it seems to track a hassidic minahag of the rebbe making motzei and then throwing bread around the room to hassidim who very much wanted the challah that he specifically blessed. when there are a lot of people around i use a similar minhag not because anyone cares about my blessing but because it gets the challah distributed much faster if you toss half loaves.ZThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00389399563327644386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147229453373668652006-05-09T22:50:00.000-04:002006-05-09T22:50:00.000-04:00Apparently, some groups of Gnostics would alternat...<I>Apparently, some groups of Gnostics would alternate which member of their community played each role in their services that week</I><BR/><BR/>Sounds like a havurah!<BR/><BR/><I>Of course, the Gnostics also had pretty stringent requirements to become part of their community, so they were elitist in that way.</I><BR/><BR/>Sounds like a 1970s havurah! :)<BR/><BR/><I>I would like to think of an ideal Jewish community as one in which every member would be educated enough to do this-- we'd just draw lots when we arrived at services to see who would act as the shaliach tzibur, who would give the d'var torah, etc.</I><BR/><BR/>That would be awesome! Let's do it. Though I'd prefer to draw lots a week in advance. No matter how educated I become, I don't want to give a d'var torah without preparation.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147229155082675742006-05-09T22:45:00.000-04:002006-05-09T22:45:00.000-04:00I have been reading about the Gnostics in Elaine P...I have been reading about the Gnostics in Elaine Pagel's book, The Gnostic Gospels. (Thanks, ER!) Apparently, some groups of Gnostics would alternate which member of their community played each role in their services that week-- one would preach a sermon, one would conduct the ritual, one would prophesy, etc. They selected different people each week by drawing lots. I would like to think of an ideal Jewish community as one in which every member would be educated enough to do this-- we'd just draw lots when we arrived at services to see who would act as the shaliach tzibur, who would give the d'var torah, etc. This approach demonstrates a tremendous amount of faith and trust in individual community members and asserts the worth of each member's contribution. Of course, the Gnostics also had pretty stringent requirements to become part of their community, so they were elitist in that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147200290063683112006-05-09T14:44:00.000-04:002006-05-09T14:44:00.000-04:00Actually, saying kiddush does absolutely change th...Actually, saying kiddush does absolutely change the status of the wine. And it has nothing to do with Christian mishegas.<BR/><BR/>That said, mixing the wine back in like that is kind of dumb, because any open wine or grape juice on the table has the status of having had kiddush said on it. In fact, if you have an open bottle on the table during kiddish, you cannot use the wine in that bottle for kiddish in the future, as it has a status of "kos pagum".Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18104724066252254654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147196843367905212006-05-09T13:47:00.000-04:002006-05-09T13:47:00.000-04:00Very insightful. And concluded with an incredible ...Very insightful. And concluded with an incredible quote.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147188072418867102006-05-09T11:21:00.000-04:002006-05-09T11:21:00.000-04:00Some new minhagim surrounding kiddush seem to bord...<I>Some new minhagim surrounding kiddush seem to border on transubstantiation. I've seen people make kiddush on a cup of wine, then pour that cup back into the bottle, mix it up, then pour for everyone from that bottle, to make sure everyone gets some of the wine that had been "blessed".</I><BR/><BR/>That would be the least of it, though at Penn we do the same thing with kiddush. Actually, pretty much everywhere. I think it's funny that people won't talk until <I>they</I> get their wine/grape juice. The halacha isn't that you personally need to drink the wine, it's that you hear kiddush, and the wine is drunk, not even necessarily by the maker of kiddush.<BR/><BR/>But there are worse things. Segulahs and brachas. I've often had trouble with those. Orthodox Judaism has always struggled with the balance of free will and God's omnipotence. I personally believe that prayer won't necessarily change God's mind. If God wants you to have this experience and learn from it, well you'll have this experience and learn from it.<BR/><BR/>So then, when women sleep on a bed that many other women have slept on and found their future husband in a short period of time afterwards*, what's that going to do? Do you think that God will change His mind because of that? If it does depend on God, then it's God's decision. Maybe heartfelt prayer will help, so God knows that you believe in him and are putting your faith in him.<BR/><BR/>And then going to a Rabbi for a bracha? Why will the words that some Rabbi says change what is going to happen to you. If it's dependent on you, then you have to get off your @$$ and <I>do</I> something. If it's dependent on God, then why would a rabbi's prayers be any more likely to be heard by God than your own, your own prayers which are heartfelt and sincere, and full of your own emotions?<BR/><BR/>To conclude, chairs don't get people pregnant, sex gets people pregnant. (And when I find the article on that, I'll send it)<BR/><BR/><BR/>[*A friend once said "Sleeping in a different bed is <I>not</I> going to help you get engaged." Of course, then she realized what she had said...]<BR/><BR/>(And should this go up in my blog?)Knitter of shiny thingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10495339297497300925noreply@blogger.com