tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post114505855132067403..comments2023-12-27T03:40:39.548-05:00Comments on Mah Rabu מה רבו: Hilchot Pluralism, Part III: Macroscopic prayer issuesBZhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-23005861482614569172017-08-22T15:57:58.952-04:002017-08-22T15:57:58.952-04:00The now defunct East Nassau Hebrew Congregation in...The now defunct East Nassau Hebrew Congregation in Nassau County,Long Island,NY had a trichitza in the 70'sAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08122634511111441410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-83826830091327114932017-01-27T04:10:09.174-05:002017-01-27T04:10:09.174-05:00If you were to approach the rabbi of a liberal-lea...If you were to approach the rabbi of a liberal-leaning Modern Orthodox shul, what reasoning would you give for having a trichitza? Do you know of halachic sources or writings that back the legitimacy of this set up? I'd love any help you can provide!Debhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08518021386932227761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-33139699437840324922016-09-15T02:15:25.865-04:002016-09-15T02:15:25.865-04:00Jews in the Woods may not have solved the egalitar...Jews in the Woods may not have solved the egalitarianism problem, but we did solve the instrument problem! We use instruments up until Mizmor Shir, then take a break for candlelighting, and then proceed to ma'ariv (during which we don't use instruments). (And of course, we schedule davening to start early enough that we are done with candlelighting before sundown.)Sarahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-37105657634618436512014-01-13T16:16:21.623-05:002014-01-13T16:16:21.623-05:00A linguistic excursus of my own :)
"Mechitza...A linguistic excursus of my own :)<br /><br />"Mechitza" comes from "hotzetz", to divide or separate, not from "hetzi". So it does not necessarily mean to divide in two. And the portmanteau "trichitza" does not raise any linguistic problems.Shlomonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-14341274955683012332008-01-22T11:44:00.000-05:002008-01-22T11:44:00.000-05:00I know, it's a bit late in terms of commentary. H...I know, it's a bit late in terms of commentary. However, let me point out that the trichitzas were being used in Young Judaea in the 80s and at Oberlin in the early 90s. Granted, neither of these were "regular minyanim" and I doubt either actually was the inventor of it. Seems like a pretty simple solution to it all, no?Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15192054640642491278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1161145968429138362006-10-18T00:32:00.000-04:002006-10-18T00:32:00.000-04:00I presume these non-egal people would also not wan...I presume these non-egal people would also not want to be counted in the minyan, but I think anyone should have the right not to be counted in a minyan against his/her consent. I've heard of a community that defined a minyan as "ten consenting adults", i.e. 10 people who count each other as a minyan (10 egal people, or 10 non-egal men, etc.).<BR/><BR/>One time when I had a siyyum, we sent out an evite asking people to RSVP so we could make sure there was a minyan for kaddish. An Orthodox male friend replied saying "I'll be there, but don't count me in the minyan." I like that approach better than "I'll only be there if there are 10 men coming."BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1161141784746678742006-10-17T23:23:00.000-04:002006-10-17T23:23:00.000-04:00re: gender egal minyan + halacha requiring leaders...re: gender egal minyan + halacha requiring leaders of a specific gender<BR/><BR/>The best, if imperfect, solution I can think of is if non-egal people accept that they might have to relate to the tfila as tfila b'yachid, even if the rest of the minyan is treating it as tfila b'tzibur. in return, egal folks are understanding of a person who doesn't bow during barchu, etc.<BR/><BR/>this is based on tfila b'tzibur not being a halachic necessity, just hiddur mitzvah, plus ability to say more= good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1148663341506225492006-05-26T13:09:00.000-04:002006-05-26T13:09:00.000-04:00I went to a bat mitzvah of a classmate in 1992 wit...I went to a bat mitzvah of a classmate in 1992 with a trichitza, but I guess we've already established that JITW was far (very far) from the first group to come up with this idea. When I went to JITW in 1999, 2000, and 2001, there was a standard mechitza, although lower than I would find in most Orthodox shuls. And davening was "Shira Hadasha"-style, which seemed very radical and clever to me at the time (as an Orthodox Jew).<BR/><BR/>I think the reason that the Leader Minyan didn't attract as much attention as Shira Hadasha/Darkhei Noam is because the latter minyanim were based on a teshuva written by an Orthodox rabbi and published in the Edah journal. I don't know on what rabbinic basis the Leader minyan was formed, but it probably wasn't a published teshuva (I'm guessing).Abacaxi Mamaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06604184268628243496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147838270984991462006-05-16T23:57:00.000-04:002006-05-16T23:57:00.000-04:00Fascinating history! Just for the record -- the T...Fascinating history! Just for the record -- the Traditional Minyan at Adas Israel Congregation in Washington DC had a trichitza system in the early 1980s -- we just never knew what to call it! There were no physical barriers, but the first row was reserved for men only, then came 4-5 rows of women and men, and finally a row of women only at the back. I don't know how long this had been going on but when I joined in 1981 it was quite a popular system and helped to bridge a variety of davening needs. (The minyan became fully egalitarian in the 1990s and then dispensed with any separate seating.)<BR/>-- GilahAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147153867682237072006-05-09T01:51:00.000-04:002006-05-09T01:51:00.000-04:00We are happily using the mashlisha/trichitza appro...We are happily using the mashlisha/trichitza approach for Shabbat morning in SF. A few of our members have expressed opposition to a curtain being used in any part of the room to segment off one group from another. Apparently the presence of any mechitza is a Stage-2 issue of serious proportions for some people. Instead we use the shulchan, with a tablecloth covering it that extends all the way to the ground, as the divider between the men and the women. The Shaliach tzibur stands at the end of the table, also between the two sections. There is no real divider between the single-gender sections and the mixed section. The mixed is behind the shaliach tzibur, thereby creating a "buffer" zone. The separator being an essential piece of shul furniture seems to satisfy everyone.<BR/><BR/>Also - I have an earlier trichitza sighting. In Jerusalem, circa 1996, there was a minyan meeting at the Merkaz HaMagshimim that had three sections. It met for only a few months until the Merkaz staff stopped it from meeting there out of fear, some say, of an Israeli law that apparently blocks landlords from ever displacing a minyan that has met in a particular place for a year or more.<BR/><BR/>My first sighting of two-section egalitarian was in Friday night minyan on the Upper West Side, held in the home of a woman with the initials JT.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1147080933246367202006-05-08T05:35:00.000-04:002006-05-08T05:35:00.000-04:00InstrumentsI think the whole instrument thing is b...<B>Instruments</B><BR/>I think the whole instrument thing is being taken too amateurishly.<BR/>It is true that the Gemara says the prohibition on instruments has to do witht repairing them, but it is a Gzeira which does not distingush between instruments.<BR/>Historically, and this is documented in Both Bavli and yerushalmi, and in earlier shources, there was a blanket prohibition on noisemaking on shabbat.<BR/>The Halakhic picture is perhaps not really clear (because a gentile, for example, could perhaps play, and there is obviously no question for beofre shabbat), but there is no dispute, I think, that on real shabbat, with actual Jews, there is no way to do instrumental music.DafKesherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08554696548964024016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1146755846071942432006-05-04T11:17:00.000-04:002006-05-04T11:17:00.000-04:00How about a radial meshlitza? I.e. each section i...How about a radial meshlitza? I.e. each section is 120° (or another appropriate angle) of the circle.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1146755322422463042006-05-04T11:08:00.000-04:002006-05-04T11:08:00.000-04:00I have a question for everyone. So, meshlitzas ar...I have a question for everyone. So, meshlitzas are starting to catch on at Brandeis. We have a minyan that has now met twice that draws a lot of the Conservative minyan and some of the Orthodox one. We also have a 'chavera' minyan whcih meets three or four times a term. In the chavera minyan we usually sit in a circle. It has been really hard to sit in a circle and to similtaniously have a meshlitza. <BR/>One idea that I have that was inspired by a minyan at UMD was to doven in concentric circles. I don't know exactly how it would work but having some people facing in and some facing out so that it would still be a somewhat unified dovenning but still fufilling people's needs/confort level.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1146503215279238502006-05-01T13:06:00.000-04:002006-05-01T13:06:00.000-04:00a small orthodox synogogue outside of Buffalo, NY ...a small orthodox synogogue outside of Buffalo, NY called Bnai Shalom had a trichitza when I was there for a shabbat many years ago (I can't remember how many). Unfortunately they also had a new Chabadish rabbi who forced the synagogue to choose between this and him. It ended in a split of the minyan. One group with a rabbi and no building and a mechitza minyan, the other group with a building and no rabbi and a trichitza.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145638877329537432006-04-21T13:01:00.000-04:002006-04-21T13:01:00.000-04:00We also discussed the trichitza at Harvard Hillel ...We also discussed the trichitza at Harvard Hillel at least as far back as 1997 or 1998 as a solution to seating in the courtyard hot tub.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145598279738842152006-04-21T01:44:00.000-04:002006-04-21T01:44:00.000-04:00It is interesting that people think that places ca...It is interesting that people think that places can have non-gendered spaces. As Ilana correctly identified, these are non-gender identified spaces: you do not need to identify as specifically male or female to enter. This does not mean the places are non gendered. The people who are in the space most often have a sense of gender identity. Sometimes its strong, sometimes less relevant ot their identity, sometimes it doesnt fit into one of two neat boxes, but the space still has gender. It almost sounds like calling an interfaith event a "religion-neutral" or a "non-religious" event. Wesleyan recently made the switch to calling certain public bathrooms "multi-gendered" instead of "gender neutral" for this reason. Multi-gendered, mixed gendered, and other such names work, but non-gendered is a misomer. <BR/><BR/>on a second note about kabbalat shabbat, I believe the kabbalat shabbat with instruments before sundown custom dates back to 19th century prague where an orthodox shul there tried to keep members from joining the reform shul by incorporating an organ concert into kabbalat shabbat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145593109719863662006-04-21T00:18:00.000-04:002006-04-21T00:18:00.000-04:00No one has mentioned the synagogue which I had bee...No one has mentioned the synagogue which I had been told invented the trichizta: in Tokyo, where for a long time presumably they didn't have enough Jews to be able to opt-out of pluralistic solutions. Anyone know more about this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145507813404809282006-04-20T00:36:00.000-04:002006-04-20T00:36:00.000-04:00Shawn Landres wrote:During the summer, IKAR does u...Shawn Landres wrote:<BR/><I>During the summer, IKAR does use guitars, etc., during Kabbalat Shabbat prior to sundown and then reverts to drums alone.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm in favor of this (for communities that don't use instruments on Shabbat). The <A HREF="http://www.havurah.org" REL="nofollow">NHC</A>'s policy is that instruments are not used on Shabbat in spaces where the whole group is meeting, but are permitted when there are multiple options of where to be. At the Summer Institute, everyone prays together on Friday night, so there are no instruments, but there are multiple options for Shabbat morning, some of which might have instruments (and there are always options without instruments). However, kabbalat shabbat always starts significantly before sundown, so this year we're going to try using instruments for kabbalat shabbat proper (when it's not Shabbat yet, either astronomically or liturgically), and cutting them out for maariv. We'll see how it goes.<BR/><BR/>(One annoying thing about this breakdown is that the Carlebach and Carlebach-esque tunes, which can sound just fine without instruments, were written mostly for kabbalat shabbat, while the Debbie Friedman et al tunes, many of which just don't work without a guitar, were written mostly for maariv. This is because Reform services tend to have a perfunctory kabbalat shabbat, and Orthodox services tend to have a perfunctory maariv. You can't win.)BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145507299329979922006-04-20T00:28:00.000-04:002006-04-20T00:28:00.000-04:00Thanks to everyone for all your comments!Ilana and...Thanks to everyone for all your comments!<BR/><BR/>Ilana and Shawn-<BR/>I think using only percussion instruments is parallel to Shira Hadasha-style minyanim.<BR/><BR/><I>Keitzad?</I><BR/><BR/>The Shira Hadasha solution provides the optimal type of minyan for some individuals, and (as Ilana said) provides a way for some combinations of people to pray together who wouldn't otherwise be praying together. However, it's not the be-all-and-end-all solution for everyone, because (a) it's not egalitarian, and (b) some people still don't consider it halachically permissible for women to lead any part of the service.<BR/><BR/>Likewise, a percussion-only service can provide a solution that would work for some combinations of people, but still doesn't work for everyone, because (a) some people don't consider even percussion instruments to be halachically and/or aesthetically acceptable on Shabbat, and (b) it runs into the same problems as no-instrument services (discussed above) for people who sometimes want to pray with melodic instruments (i.e. it's ok some of the time, but not always).<BR/><BR/>These "compromise"-type solutions are effective at going outside the usual boxes and creating new boxes, and I'm all in favor of that, since it's better to have more options, but they don't succeed in transcending the boxes the way that the <A HREF="http://mahrabu.blogspot.com/2006/02/hilchot-pluralism-part-i-two-table.html" REL="nofollow">two-table system</A> or the trichitza do.BZhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18242965196421853025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145480386963254942006-04-19T16:59:00.000-04:002006-04-19T16:59:00.000-04:00"trichetzas" go back to the 1920s with the origina..."trichetzas" go back to the 1920s with the original "orthodox" synogogues that were built with mens, womens, and family sections. See Louis Ginzberg's comment from <A HREF="http://bfleischer.googlepages.com/jewish" REL="nofollow">here</A> quoted below<BR/><BR/><I> "And you say, therefore," the Professor was asked, "that this problem has become in some measure a question of propriety, of liberalism?" "Most assuredly," was the reply. "The true liberal is he who respects views differing from his own. One may respect views similar to one's own and still remain a thorough bigot. In every congreation so troubledthere are parties for or against mixed pews. The man who insistson comingling the sexes has arguments of expediency only, not of religion. He believes more young people will then attend; or that women desiring to remain with their families will be satsified; or that some vague spirit of modernism may thus be expressed. The believer in separation, however, finds the mixed pews incompatible with his religious convictions-- a far more potent impulse than mere expediency. Many Jews would refuse to read the Shema in a pew containing both men and women. It is a matter of earnest principle with such men. Hence, where this is a minority in a congregation which protests against such an innovations, the others should respect their wishes, not on the grounds of law but of true liberalism. The question is out of the realm of law; it is a matter of sympathetic judgement of conditions."</I><BR/><BR/>The book talks about the "trichetza" as well, but I don't have the source typed up.OJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00211341093491536772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145469130770266142006-04-19T13:52:00.000-04:002006-04-19T13:52:00.000-04:00If my memory serves me correctly, I witnessed a "t...If my memory serves me correctly, I witnessed a "trichitza" in a so-called orthodox synagogue in Peoria, IL in the summer of 1974. The sanctuary was constructed with fixed pews, with two aisles which divided it into three sections. The mid-section, we were told, was for mixed seating, the section on the right (facing the bimah) was for men only, and on the left was for women only. That seemed to be their established minhag; not at all controversial.<BR/>I was in Peoria running a Jewish day-camp out of the Reform temple for a couple of weeks, and went on shabbat morning to the orthodox shul. Walking home after services, an elderly man asked me what I did when I wasn't working at summer camp. I told him that I was leaving in a few weeks for Jerusalem, to begin my studies to become a rabbi. He exclaimed, (in Yiddish-accented English) "When you're a rabbi, I'll be a rebbitzin!" I often wondered what happened to him after my ordination in 1979. :^)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145414813332083092006-04-18T22:46:00.000-04:002006-04-18T22:46:00.000-04:00I'm also not going to solve the issue of instrumen...<I>I'm also not going to solve the issue of instruments on Shabbat. A service either uses instruments on Shabbat or it doesn't; I can't think of any other options.</I><BR/><BR/>Actually, there are distinctions to be made between percussion instruments and other instruments, and possibly a distinction to be made between instruments that permit pitch modulation and instruments that do not. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.ikar-la.org" REL="nofollow">IKAR</A> in Los Angeles permits drums and, as I understand it, in thoery would permit a digeridoo on the grounds that one cannot control its pitch. During the summer, IKAR does use guitars, etc., during Kabbalat Shabbat prior to sundown and then reverts to drums alone.<BR/><BR/>One also could make a case for instruments that either work or don't (and are not reparable by the musician). Thus drums and wooden flutes would be permitted, but guitars and violins would not. There would be a machloket over clarinets, I imagine.Shawn Landreshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07051949516683197185noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145377709565632172006-04-18T12:28:00.000-04:002006-04-18T12:28:00.000-04:00The other things I meant were nothing radical. I ...The other things I meant were nothing radical. I just meant that the rabbi was okay with our plan to have 2-section seating and a man leading ma'ariv, but wouldn't have been if it were a woman leading. Things like that. (We did make other creative attempts to make the service attractive, but nothing too dramatic.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145371614075957932006-04-18T10:46:00.000-04:002006-04-18T10:46:00.000-04:00I've often wondered what made Penn's multidenomina...I've often wondered what made Penn's multidenominational service actually multidenominational other than the fact that people of different denominations prayed together. Women couldn't lead any part of the services, and there was no mixed area. The only "comprmises" on the Orthodox Jews were the inclusion of kavanot-ish things, and even those were done only during kaballat shabbat. Not that I'm such a big fan of kavanot myself, but still.<BR/><BR/>(What were the "other things" you guys were planning, Desh?)<BR/><BR/>As far as I can tell, Penn will never have a trichitza. The OCP leadership even has trouble with a shira chadasha minyan going on, with full mechitzaness, only for Friday night and not Saturday morning. They say the issue is kol isha.<BR/><BR/>Fine, there could be something either shira chadasha-ish or egal with separate seating without Orthodox backing. I wanted their approval so that people who only would go if it was considered "halachic," and had OCP approval would go. It <I>is</I> halachic. There are valid opinions that say kol isha doesn't apply to davening and zmirot. But they couldn't even acknowledge that another opinion might be valid.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, this is also a place where women can't even kiss the Torah in the Ortho minyan. The fact that we can dance with a Torah on Simchat Torah, or even dance at all, is comparitively revolutionary.Knitter of shiny thingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10495339297497300925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12610610.post-1145368988665081762006-04-18T10:03:00.000-04:002006-04-18T10:03:00.000-04:00Any minyan that has constituents who prefer separa...<I>Any minyan that has constituents who prefer separate seating and constituents who prefer mixed seating, and that takes no official stance that one of the options is invalid, should have a trichitza.</I><BR/><BR/>This situation came up in 2003 when trying to plan Penn Hillel's first ever (as far as I know) multidenominational service. However, our decidedly Stage-1 mentality led us to eliminate the third section of seating. The reason was that the Orthodox rabbi on campus at the time told us that he'd consider the service an acceptable alternative to the Ortho minyan if we had two seating sections (and did the other things we were planning), but not if we added the third.<BR/><BR/>I just thought it was worth throwing out there that some people who consider your "any minyan" to currently be acceptable would no longer do so if it had a third section, and that they ground this acceptability firmly in halacha. Yes, this viewpoint is counterproductive from a pluralistic standpoint, but it's out there, and might cause these people to leave the minyan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com